HELLO AND WELCOME TO WEAPONS AND WARFARE. FOR STRAIGHT ARROW NEWS I’M YOUR HOST RYAN ROBERTSON AND THIS WEEK WE HAVE SOMETHING SPECIAL FOR YOU, A CONVERSATION WITH ONE OF THE CREATIVE FORCES BEHIND OLD GLORY STUDIOS.
STARTED BY COMBAT VETERANS AND EXPERIENCED GAME DEVELOPERS LEWIS MANALO AND MATT PATAK, OLD GLORY STUDIOS BOASTS MORE THAN 25 YEARS OF EXPERTISE IN THE GAMING INDUSTRY.
BEFORE STARTING OLD GLORY, MANALO AND PATAK HELPED CREATE SOME OF THE MOST RENOWNED TACTICAL SHOOTERS GAMES, INFUSING THEIR REAL-LIFE EXPERIENCES INTO THE GAME DEVELOPMENT PROCESS.
SO, AHEAD OF THEIR NEXT RELEASE, VICTORY’S GRAVE: OUTFLANK, A TEAM-BASED PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER SHOOTER THAT’S SET IN A POST-APOCALYPTIC VERSION OF 1980S EASTERN EUROPE, I SAT DOWN WITH LEWIS TO TALK ABOUT HIS JOURNEY TO BECOMING A VIDEO GAME DEVELOPER.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
ALL RIGHT. LEWIS MANALO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY. CO-FOUNDER OF OLD GLORY STUDIOS, ALSO AN ARMY VETERAN. YOU SERVED WITH THE 82ND AIRBORNE IN AFGHANISTAN. AND TRUTH BE TOLD, MAN, YOU WORKED ON SOME OF MY FAVORITE GAMES, THE TOM CLANCY GHOST RECON SERIES. YOU DID WILDLANDS AND BREAKPOINT. YOU’RE A WRITER ON THOSE. SO I HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS FOR YOU. REALLY EXCITED THAT WE GET A CHANCE TO TALK TO YOU. BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST, HOW DOES A GUY GO FROM, YOU KNOW, JUMPING OUT OF AIRPLANES TO MAKING VIDEO GAMES ABOUT PEOPLE JUMPING OUT OF AIRPLANES INTO WAR ZONES?
[LEWIS MANALO]
YEAH, WELL, NOT ON PURPOSE. SO LET ME GO THERE. THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME FIRST OF ALL. BUT YEAH, SO ACTUALLY, MY BACKGROUND IS ACTUALLY IN FILM AND TV. SO I WENT TO NYU FILM SCHOOL, AND I GRADUATED THAT IN ’99. SO I WAS ACTUALLY ALREADY WORKING A LITTLE BIT IN THE INDUSTRY, WORKING AND, YOU KNOW, LIKE DOING SOUND RECORDING JOBS, A SHOT OF DOCUMENTARY AND STUFF, YOU KNOW, ENTRY LEVEL GIGS, RIGHT? YEAH, LIKE, ENTRY LEVEL GIGS. I WAS, LIKE, THE HOLD THE TRIPOD FOR THE ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT CAREER THAT WENT TO WHATEVER OPENING, YOU KNOW, LIKE, JOINING THE MILITARY WAS REALLY FAR FROM MY MIND.
I MEAN, LIKE, I’D HAD RELATIVES WHO’D SERVED, YOU KNOW, LIKE, MY MOTHER’S FATHER WAS, LIKE, A GUERRILLA FIGHTER IN THE PHILIPPINES IN WORLD WAR TWO. MY FATHER’S MOTHER, LIKE, GOT THE GI BILL FOR SOMETHING WHICH IN THE PHILIPPINES, WHICH NO ONE WILL ACTUALLY, LIKE, REALLY TALK ABOUT. SO I DON’T REALLY KNOW WHAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT THAT WAS. THEN, YOU KNOW, I HAD AN UNCLE WHO WAS A MARINE AND ANOTHER ONE WHO WAS, YOU KNOW, LIKE, IN THE NAVY. SO, YEAH, LIKE THAT. IT’S, LIKE, IT WAS PART OF MY FAMILY’S KIND OF THING, BUT IT WASN’T WHAT ANYTHING I WAS GOING TO DO.
BUT, YOU KNOW, LIKE I SAID, I WENT TO NYU, AND THEN AFTERWARDS, I MOVED TO JERSEY CITY, WHICH IS JUST ACROSS THE STREET, ACROSS THE HUDSON RIVER, RIGHT? SO ON SEPTEMBER 11, LIKE I WATCHED THE WORLD TRADE CENTER FALL FROM MY WINDOW, YOU KNOW, SO, SO THAT’S WHY I ENLISTED. AND THEN, YOU KNOW, I DID END UP GOING TO AFGHANISTAN A COUPLE TIMES. BUT THEN WHEN I GOT OUT, I TRIED TO GET BACK INTO FILM AGAIN AND WRITING.
SO BASICALLY, LIKE, AFTER A COUPLE OF YEARS, I WAS, YOU KNOW, I WAS DOING SOME PRODUCING FOR DOCUMENTARY FILMS, BUT I ALSO WAS STILL WRITING, AND I HAD A READING OF A PLAY I WROTE, AND AN OLD FRIEND OF MINE CAME AND SAW IT, BUT HE HAPPENED TO BE WORKING AT UBISOFT AT THE TIME. AND THEN, LIKE, JUST KNOWING MY BACKGROUND, YOU KNOW, WHERE I SERVED AND BUT I ALSO—THE DOCUMENTARIES I’D SHOT, HAD PRODUCED, HAD BEEN SHOT IN SOUTH AMERICA, RIGHT? LIKE, SPECIFICALLY IN COLOMBIA, RIGHT?
SO AT THE TIME, LIKE UBISOFT WAS VERY MUCH INTO AUTHENTICITY. AND HE’S LIKE, HEY, YOU KNOW, WE’RE WORKING ON THIS GAME, LIKE GHOST RECON WILDLANDS. IT’S ABOUT THESE OPERATORS WHO ARE, LIKE, FIGHTING A DRUG CARTEL IN SOUTH AMERICA. YOU WANT TO WRITE SOME STUFF FOR US, YOU KNOW? AND IT WAS, LIKE, IT WAS REALLY A GOOD FIT, YOU KNOW, LIKE, WHEN I, AS SOON AS I STARTED, I WAS ABLE TO SEND HIM, LIKE, AN INTERVIEW WE’D DONE WITH, LIKE, A COCOLERO IN COLOMBIA, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
AND BASICALLY, I REALLY ENJOYED THAT EXPERIENCE, LIKE WORKING WITH HIM, AND THEN AFTER, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY, I JUST KIND OF STAYED ON THAT FRANCHISE FOR A FEW MORE YEARS. SO YEAH, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, LIKE, I, YOU KNOW, I’M STILL WRITING OTHER THINGS AS WELL. BUT BASICALLY, LIKE, I’M ALL IN ON VIDEO GAMES.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
WE’VE COME A LONG WAY SINCE, LIKE, YOU WORK ON, YOU KNOW, TACTICAL SHOOTERS AND STUFF. THE FIRST SHOOTER WAS, WHAT, LIKE, DUCK HUNT THAT I PROBABLY COME A LONG WAY SINCE THEN, RIGHT? WE DON’T HAVE TO BLOW IN A CARTRIDGE ANYMORE TO GET IT TO WORK. IT’S GREAT. BUT YOU, LIKE, YOU MENTIONED THE AUTHENTICITY THAT UBISOFT WAS LOOKING AFTER OR LOOKING FOR, AND YOU WERE ABLE TO BRING THAT. SO I KIND OF WANT TO DIVE INTO THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE, THE GAME ITSELF, MAN. LIKE, YOU KNOW, VIDEO GAMES HAVE GOOD STORIES, YOU KNOW, LIKE THE CUT SCENES AND STUFF LIKE THAT. LIKE, YOU KNOW, MY WIFE COMES IN AND SHE’S LIKE, OH, IT’S A CUT SCENE. I CAN TALK TO YOU. I’M LIKE, NO, NO. LIKE, I CAN HEAR WHAT THIS PERSON’S ABOUT TO SAY. LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. LIKE, YOU, YOU FEEL VESTED IN THESE CHARACTERS, RIGHT? HOW MUCH OF YOUR REAL LIFE WAS, YOU KNOW, INTERJECTED IN IT? HOW MUCH OF IT WAS IT ART IMITATING LIFE, AND HOW MUCH OF IT WAS JUST LIKE, I’VE NEVER ACTUALLY SEEN THIS, BUT, MAN, IT’S GOING TO LOOK REALLY COOL. LIKE, HOW MUCH, HOW MUCH OF HIS REALITY, VERSE, MAKE BELIEVE?
[LEWIS MANALO]
SURE. SO, UM, AGAIN, LIKE MY MANDATE ON GHOST RECON WILDLANDS WAS, LIKE, REALITY—WAS REALISM, YOU KNOW? SO, UM, AS A WRITER, A LOT OF THE STORY AND A LOT OF THE CHARACTERS HAD ALREADY BEEN CREATED BY, LIKE, DON WINSLOW, YOU KNOW, WRITER OF POWER OF THE DOG AND ALL THESE BOOKS. SO, LIKE, I DIDN’T CREATE MUCH OF THAT, BUT I DID WRITE A LOT OF THE DIALOGUE THAT ENDS UP IN THE GAME.
AND IT—LIKE, I DON’T KNOW HOW—FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN’T FAMILIAR WITH THE FRANCHISE, LIKE, THE DIALOGUE IS KIND OF SOMETHING THAT DIVIDES PEOPLE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO’VE SERVED, THEY’RE LIKE, “CRAP, THAT’S REALLY HOW PEOPLE SPEAK.” YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? BUT THE WAY PEOPLE REALLY SPEAK ISN’T THE WAY YOU OFTEN SEE MILITARY PEOPLE SPEAK IN MOVIES AND IN OTHER VIDEO GAMES. SO, LIKE, THAT’S THE THING TOO—FOR BETTER OR WORSE, I’VE MADE IT AS REAL AS I COULD.
LIKE, I SERVED IN BRAGG, SO I MADE JOKES ABOUT CERTAIN AREAS OF BRAGG, LIKE AREA J, WHICH IS WHERE WE’D ALWAYS HAVE TO GO RUNNING THROUGH SAND AND STUFF. YOU KNOW, THINGS LIKE THAT I’D THROW IN.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
AND THAT’S STUFF THAT, LIKE, ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE SERVED AND ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME THROUGH BRAGG—LIKE, THAT’S AN EASTER EGG THAT I WOULD NEVER GET, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? BUT THAT’S AN AUTHENTIC LEVEL THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR THE GUYS WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH IT, OR KNOW ABOUT IT, OR GALS, YOU KNOW, THEY SEE IT, THEY HEAR IT, AND THEY’RE LIKE, “YEP.” YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW YOU’RE NOT MAKING CRAP, YOU’RE MAKING SOMETHING THAT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACTUALLY DONE THIS STUFF WOULD BE LIKE, “YEAH, THAT’S ACCURATE”?
[LEWIS MANALO]
WELL, YEAH, SURE. LIKE, AUTHENTICITY IS—THAT’S DEFINITELY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I DEFINITELY WANT TO BRING, ESPECIALLY FOR THE MILITARY. BUT IT’S, YOU KNOW, LIKE, ALL THE FAN REACTIONS ARE GREAT, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
LIKE, THAT’S SORT OF THE THING. I KNOW THAT PROBABLY 99.9% OF THE PEOPLE WHO PLAY THE GAME DON’T KNOW WHAT AREA J IS, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? BUT JUST BY THE WAY THAT THE CHARACTERS TALK ABOUT IT, THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT IS CONVEYED TO THE PEOPLE THAT FEELS REAL.
LIKE, THE JOKE SPECIFICALLY—THERE’S PARTS WHERE YOU DRIVE AROUND. YOU CAN BASICALLY DRIVE LIKE CRAZY IN GHOST RECON WILDLANDS, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN DRIVE UP MOUNTAINS AND DOWN THE ANDES AND STUFF. BUT BASICALLY, I HAD SOME JOKE WHERE PEOPLE JUST GO, “OH YEAH, IT’S JUST LIKE MUD IN AREA J,” YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
WHICH YOU WEREN’T REALLY ALLOWED TO DO, BUT ON, LIKE, MONDAY RUNS OR SOMETHING, OR LIKE, IF WE GO WALKING THROUGH THERE, WE’D ALWAYS END UP SEEING SOME TRUCK THAT SOMEBODY GOT STUCK IN THE MUD, LIKE, UP TO THE TOPS OF ITS WHEEL WELLS. BUT IT’S SOMETHING—THERE ARE DETAILS LIKE THAT THAT FEEL REAL, EVEN THOUGH THEY’RE MAYBE OBSCURE TO PEOPLE WHO AREN’T IN THE MILITARY THEMSELVES.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
I WANT TO KIND OF DOUBLE TAP ON THE REALISM ASPECT OF IT, BECAUSE THERE ARE POSSIBILITIES OUT THERE THAT THE UNITED STATES COULD POTENTIALLY FIND ITSELF IN A CONFLICT WITH THE DRUG CARTELS OF SOUTH AMERICA AND CENTRAL AND LATIN AMERICA, YOU KNOW.
SO, HAVING WORKED ON A GAME LIKE WILDLANDS, HAVING SERVED IN THE MILITARY, HOW MUCH OF IT WOULD BE LIKE THOSE SOF UNITS GOING IN, MAKING THOSE LOCAL CONNECTIONS—YOU KNOW, YOU GOTTA HELP THIS GUY BECAUSE THEY’RE FIGHTING TOO, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
LIKE, WHEN YOU PLAY A GAME LIKE WILDLANDS OR BREAKPOINT, THERE’S THE TACTICAL LEVEL OF IT, AND ALSO THE “YOU GOTTA MAKE FRIENDS, YOU GOTTA MAKE ALLIES,” RIGHT? BECAUSE YOU’RE GONNA NEED THOSE FOLKS TO HELP FIGHT. BECAUSE IT’S NOT THE AMERICA, IT’S NOT THE 82ND AIRBORNE DROPPING IN. IT’S, YOU KNOW, FOUR OR FIVE GUYS HERE AND THERE. WOULD THAT BE HOW AN ACTUAL CONFLICT WITH THE CARTELS MIGHT PLAY OUT, IN YOUR OPINION?
[LEWIS MANALO]
I MEAN, I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, IT MIGHT BE LIKE THE FANTASY VERSION OF HOW IT WOULD PLAY OUT, YOU KNOW? OR IF YOU’RE IN THE CARTEL, IT MIGHT BE THE NIGHTMARE VERSION OF IT.
BECAUSE DEFINITELY, THE WAY THAT WE TRIED TO SET UP THINGS, IN TERMS OF THE WAY THAT THE MISSIONS FLOWED, AND EVEN SOME OF THE KIND OF EASTER EGGS WE DROP IN THE DIALOGUE, WOULD ALLUDE TO WAYS THAT OPERATIONS WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE WORKED.
LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THEATER IN AFGHANISTAN, WE MAKE LITTLE NODS TO “THE ACTIVITY,” WHICH—I THINK THEY GO BY A TOTALLY DIFFERENT NAME NOW—BUT THAT’S BASICALLY THE PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT THERE GATHERING INTEL, WHICH THEN THE OPERATORS USE FOR THEIR MISSIONS.
BUT AGAIN, A LOT OF THESE COUNTRIES ARE STRAIGHT-UP ALLIES. IN TERMS OF THE GOVERNMENTS, OUR ALLIES, IT’S PROBABLY GOING TO BE PRETTY DIFFERENT.
I MEAN, HONESTLY, I DON’T KNOW ANY MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE WHO PAYS ATTENTION TO THE NEWS, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? BUT FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, I WOULD SUSPECT THAT THE REAL BENEFITS TO DECLARING A CARTEL LIKE A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION COME FROM THE FACT THAT NOW LESS PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY WORK WITH THEM.
ESPECIALLY ON THE U.S. SIDE OF THE BORDER. IF YOU WERE, OR HAPPEN TO BE, SOMEONE WHO WAS CORRUPT AND TAKING PAYMENTS FROM THE CARTEL, YOU’RE GONNA HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF GETTING CAUGHT—THEY’RE GONNA BE A LOT DIFFERENT NOW.
OR LET’S SAY YOU’RE—LIKE, A LOT OF DISPENSARIES IN SOME STATES, BECAUSE THEY CAN’T USE NORMAL BANKING SYSTEMS, THEY END UP BEING USED TO LAUNDER MONEY FOR CARTELS. BUT NOW IT’S LIKE, OH, NOW YOU’RE LAUNDERING MONEY FOR A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.
SO IT’S A REALLY DIFFERENT—THE CONSEQUENCES ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT. THAT’S WHERE I THINK A LOT OF THE REAL DIFFERENCES ARE GOING TO BE MADE IN TERMS OF ENFORCEMENT.
BUT THEN ALSO, YOU CAN SEE IT ALSO EMPOWERED THE MILITARY TO ACT VERY QUICKLY. LIKE, THE 82ND AIRBORNE IS ALREADY DOWN THERE—WITHIN 18 HOURS THEY WERE DOWN AT THE BORDER.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
ALL RIGHT, LET’S GO BACK INTO VIDEO GAME TERRITORY A LITTLE BIT MORE NOW. WHEN WE’RE TALKING ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT THE DIALOGUE IS THERE, THE NODS TO GUYS WHO’VE SERVED, AND THAT KIND OF THING—SO MUCH OF, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, SHOOTER GAMES, THIRD PERSON, FIRST PERSON, IS THE WEAPONRY. HOW MUCH EFFORT DID YOU—YOU KNOW, A—HOW MUCH INVOLVEMENT DID YOU HAVE IN MAKING SURE THAT THE WEAPONS THAT MADE IT INTO THE GAME WERE TRUE TO FORM, AND WOULD LOOK AND FEEL AS MUCH AS YOU CAN WHEN YOU’RE PLAYING ON A CONTROL PAD, RIGHT? BUT WHEN YOU’RE—LIKE, THE RELOAD AND THE SOUND—HOW MUCH INPUT DID YOU HAVE IN THAT ASPECT OF THE GAMES?
[LEWIS MANALO]
OKAY, SURE. SO FOR THE ACTUAL MECHANICS OF HOW IT FEELS—THE JUICE OF THE GAME—THAT’S A WHOLE DIFFERENT TEAM, AND THAT’S A REALLY SPECIALIZED THING. THAT’S WHY, IN SOME GAMES, IT FEELS AMAZING, AND IN OTHER GAMES, IT MIGHT JUST FEEL A LITTLE BIT OFF, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? IT’S PART OF THE THREE C’S, WHICH IS BASICALLY HOW YOUR CHARACTER INTERACTS WITH THE WORLD. SO THAT’S VERY SPECIALIZED.
I DID, HOWEVER, WORK VERY CLOSELY WITH THE AUTHENTICITY TEAM THAT UBISOFT HAD AT THE TIME. HE’S NO LONGER THERE, BUT THE GUY TRAVIS—WHO I MET WHILE WORKING ON THIS, AND WE’RE STILL FRIENDS YEARS LATER—WE WORKED TOGETHER PRETTY CLOSELY. AND I ENDED UP WRITING—ACTUALLY WROTE ALMOST ALL THE MENUS THAT ARE IN THE GAMES, ALL THE WEAPONS DESCRIPTIONS AS WELL.
SO A LOT OF THAT STUFF TOO—IT’D BE LIKE, I’D HAVE TO CALL THEM UP AND BE LIKE, “THIS ISN’T REAL, IS IT?” YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? LIKE, YOU CAN’T HAVE, LIKE, THE UPPER OF A 249 ON THE LOWER OF AN M4, RIGHT?
SO YEAH, THERE’S DEFINITELY STUFF THAT’S NOT REAL, DEFINITELY STUFF THAT’S EXAGGERATED. BUT THEN, YOU KNOW, THERE’S DEFINITELY AN EFFORT—ESPECIALLY ON WILDLANDS—TO REALLY MAKE THE GUNS FEEL REAL, TO BASE THEM ON ACTUAL GUNS.
IF I CAN KIND OF TAKE US ON A TANGENT, THERE’S BASICALLY BEEN AN EFFORT IN THE GAME INDUSTRY TO NOT LICENSE GUNS FROM ACTUAL GUN MANUFACTURERS. WHICH IS KIND OF IRONIC, I THINK. SO MANY GAMES ARE SHOOTER GAMES, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THEY’RE LIKE, “OH, WELL, WE’RE NOT GONNA GIVE ANY MONEY TO THESE EVIL GUN MANUFACTURERS. WE’RE JUST GONNA COPY THEIR DESIGNS AND CALL THEM SOMETHING ELSE.”
SO THAT’S WHERE A LOT OF THE—HONESTLY, THAT WAS SORT OF LIKE THE LEAK IN AUTHENTICITY STARTED THERE, AND NOW THERE’S EVEN LESS AND LESS AUTHENTICITY, I THINK, IN A LOT OF MILITARY GAMES.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
YOU LOOK AT CALL OF DUTY, ARGUABLY ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR FIRST-PERSON SHOOTER GAMES. AND ABSOLUTELY—YOU KNOW, MY KIDS PLAY NOW. I CAME AND WATCHED MY 14-YEAR-OLD PLAYING IT THE OTHER DAY, AND THERE’S, LIKE, THE SKINS, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? AND IT’S LIKE, “IS THAT SANTA CLAUS AND HIS REINDEER RUNNING DOWN WITH AN AK? LIKE, WHAT’S GOING ON HERE?”
[LEWIS MANALO]
YEAH, NO, LIKE, YOU CAN PLAY AS, LIKE, CHEECH MARIN IN THERE NOW AND STUFF. YEAH. SO IT’S…
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
SO THAT’S—I MEAN, THAT’S A LAYER OF GAMING. IT’S NOT FOR EVERYBODY, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? WHAT I ENJOYED ABOUT THE GAMES THAT YOU WORKED ON WAS KIND OF THE REALISM OF IT. AND YOUR CO-FOUNDER—HE WORKED ON DIVISION ONE AND DIVISION TWO. I’M LITERALLY REPLAYING DIVISION TWO RIGHT NOW. THE NEW DLC COMING OUT—I’M LIKE, “I GOTTA REMEMBER HOW EVERYTHING GOES,” RIGHT?
BUT YOU—LET’S GO TO WHAT YOU GUYS ARE DOING NOW, RIGHT? OLD GLORY STUDIOS. THIS IS YOU AND YOUR CO-FOUNDER, MATT—
[LEWIS MANALO]
MATT PATAK, YEAH.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
PATAK, YEAH. HE’S ALSO A VETERAN. YOU GUYS DECIDED TO COME TOGETHER, CREATE A NEW STUDIO FOR YOU GUYS TO MAKE THE THINGS THAT YOU LOVE TO MAKE, RIGHT? SO DESCRIBE WHAT KIND OF GAMES YOU’RE WORKING ON RIGHT NOW. YOU HAVE YOUR ONE—THE MAIN ONE, RIGHT? THE SHOWRUNNER, AS IT WERE, THAT WE’RE HOPING TO BUILD INTO A FRANCHISE, HOPEFULLY. SO WALK ME THROUGH WHAT OLD GLORY IS DOING RIGHT NOW.
[LEWIS MANALO]
OKAY, SURE. SO, YOU KNOW, LIKE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, A LOT OF GAMES NOW—GAMES THAT USED TO FEEL KIND OF AUTHENTIC BUT STILL VERY ACCESSIBLE—THEY’VE GONE FURTHER TOWARD MORE LIKE FORTNITE, KIND OF CARTOONY GAMES. YOU KNOW, YOU CAN PLAY AS SNOOP DOGG, WHICH IS FUN, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR BLING AND AK-47-LOOKING TYPE GUN AND EVERYTHING, BUT IT DOESN’T FEEL REAL AT ALL, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
BUT THEN ON THE OTHER SIDE, THERE ARE GAMES LIKE ARMA OR SQUAD, WHICH GO HARDCORE WITH THE REALISM. AND DEPENDING ON WHO YOU’RE PLAYING WITH, IT MIGHT END UP FEELING LIKE YOU’RE ALMOST DOING REENACTMENTS—LIKE YOU’RE BASICALLY PLAYING IN A MUSEUM, KIND OF THING.
SO BASICALLY, THERE’S THIS BIG HOLE IN THE MARKET. AND IT’S THE GAMES THAT WE LOVE. SO WHAT WE’RE TRYING TO DO IS MAKE COMBAT GAMES THAT FEEL VERY AUTHENTIC—LIKE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WITH GHOST RECON WILDLANDS—BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THEY’RE STILL VERY ACCESSIBLE AS WELL.
THEY’RE NOT GOING TO BE AS RIGOROUS WITH THE AUTHENTICITY AS SOME OF THE PLAYERS IN THOSE GAMES MIGHT TAKE THINGS. LIKE, “OH, YOU WOULD NEVER RELOAD YOUR GUN LIKE THAT IN 1942.” SO TO SORT OF BRIDGE THAT GAP AND STILL CREATE GAMEPLAY THAT’S FUN AND PRETTY RAW, REALLY, WE SET UP THIS WORLD CALLED VICTORY’S GRAVE.
AND KIND OF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COLD WAR IN 1984, IN THE WINTER, THERE’S THIS HUGE BLACKOUT. ELECTRICITY GOES OFF ALL OVER THE WORLD. NOW YOU HAVE SOLDIERS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE IRON CURTAIN—NATO AND WARSAW PACT—THEY DON’T KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON. EACH SIDE THINKS THEY’RE GETTING ATTACKED BY THE OTHER. SO THEY JUST GET REDUCED TO JOE LOGIC—THEY JUST START SHOOTING EVERYTHING.
SO A WAR BREAKS OUT. BUT BECAUSE THE SOVIET UNION, AS WE KNOW NOW, DIDN’T REALLY HAVE AS MANY SUPPLIES—THEY WEREN’T AS STRONG AS THE FRONT THEY PUT ON—NATO ENDS UP PUSHING TO THE EAST. BUT EVENTUALLY, THE SOVIET UNION JUST KIND OF CRUMBLES.
SO THE COLD WAR HAS BEEN WON, BUT NOW WE’RE JUST LEFT IN THIS KIND OF WASTELAND WHERE ALL THESE SOLDIERS ARE STRANDED IN THE MIDDLE OF EVERYWHERE. SOME BECOME BANDITS. SOME TRY TO BECOME WARLORDS. OTHERS STILL TRY TO GO ON WITH THE MISSION THAT THEY HAD BEFORE.
AND WITHIN THIS CONTEXT OF VICTORY’S GRAVE, OUR FIRST GAME THAT WE’RE PUTTING TOGETHER IS CALLED VICTORY’S GRAVE: OUTFLANK. AND OUTFLANK IS A TEAM-BASED PVP GAME WHERE IT’S FIVE PEOPLE VERSUS FIVE IN AN ASYMMETRICAL KIND OF WARFARE OUT IN THE COUNTRYSIDE.
SO ONE GROUP WILL HOLD A TOWN—THERE’LL BE AN OBJECTIVE IN THE TOWN—AND ANOTHER GROUP OF FIVE HAS TO ATTACK AND TAKE OVER. AND IT’S ALSO ROUND-BASED, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I’M IN MY 40s, I GOT KIDS WHO I WANT TO SPEND TIME WITH, AND WE KNOW A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE LIKE THAT TOO, RIGHT?
SO BASICALLY, IT’LL BE DIVIDED INTO 10-MINUTE ROUNDS, AND THE FIRST TEAM TO WIN THREE OF THOSE ROUNDS BY HOLDING THAT TOWN IN THE CENTER—THEY WIN.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
HOW DEEP ARE YOU GOING INTO—YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE COMPLEXITIES—AND IT’S, YOU KNOW, “OH, I GOT A NEW GUN IN THIS GAME.” WELL, WHAT SCOPE DO YOU WANT? WHAT DO YOU WANT ON THE UNDERBARREL? DO YOU WANT A SILENCER OR A SUPPRESSOR? AND ALL THE DIFFERENT OPTIONS AND EVERYTHING. AND THEN, AS YOU KNOW, ALL THE QUESTS AND THE SIDE QUESTS. AND SOME PEOPLE REALLY LIKE IT, SOME PEOPLE DON’T. HOW DEEP INTO THAT TYPE OF STUFF ARE YOU GUYS GOING?
[LEWIS MANALO]
SURE. SO FOR VICTORY’S GRAVE, PART OF WHAT WE’RE DOING IS BASICALLY DIVIDING UP—SORRY, LET ME BACK UP A LITTLE BIT.
IN A TRADITIONAL TRIPLE-A GAME, LIKE GHOST RECON WILDLANDS OR THE DIVISION, IT WOULD BE A GAME THAT TRIED TO BE ALL THINGS TO ALL PEOPLE. SO LIKE YOU WERE SAYING BEFORE, THERE’S CINEMATICS IN THERE, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE PVP, AND YOU MIGHT HAVE AN OPEN WORLD WHERE YOU CAN TAKE OVER DIFFERENT BASES AND THINGS.
BUT WHAT I LEARNED—AND I WAS REALLY SURPRISED TO LEARN THIS WHEN I WAS WORKING ON WILDLANDS—NOT EVERYBODY LIKES TO PLAY EVERYTHING. SPECIFICALLY IN GHOST RECON, THERE’S SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST REALLY HARDCORE ABOUT JUST THE PVP. MEANWHILE, I’D SPENT YEARS WRITING ALL THIS NARRATIVE STUFF, AND WE’D SHOT ALL THESE CINEMATICS, AND THEY WOULD JUST SKIP THEM AS FAST AS THEY COULD.
SO FOR US, IT MAKES SENSE—AS PLAYERS—WHY WOULD WE PAY FOR SOMETHING THAT WE’RE NEVER GOING TO WANT? IT’S LIKE, IF YOU HAD BASIC CABLE, I’M WATCHING ALL THE CLINT EASTWOOD MOVIES ON TNT, BUT I’M NOT WATCHING CNN. WHY AM I PAYING FOR CNN?
SO THAT’S OUR IDEA—SPLITTING UP THIS ONE BIG PROJECT THAT HAS A NARRATIVE THAT GOES ACROSS DIFFERENT GAMES. FIRST, WE’RE HAVING THE PVP GAME. LATER THIS YEAR, WE’RE HOPING TO START PRE-PRODUCTION ON JUST THE NARRATIVE PART.
SO BASICALLY, EACH GAME WILL BE VERY NARROW IN FOCUS. IT’S REALLY JUST GOING TO BE PVP, TEAM-BASED FOR OUTFLANK. BUT IN TERMS OF PERSONALIZATION AND STUFF—LIKE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT—ONE OF THE REASONS WE SET IT IN THE ’80s WAS TO LIMIT THE TECHNOLOGY.
BECAUSE AT A CERTAIN POINT—AND THIS IS ONE OF THE LESSONS I THINK I LEARNED FROM GHOST RECON BREAKPOINT—DRONES AREN’T FUN. FIGHTING ON A BATTLEFIELD WITH DRONES, IT’S NOT THE SAME KIND OF EXPERIENCE AS IF IT’S JUST THE PLAYERS TRYING TO FIND OUT WHERE THE OTHER PLAYERS ARE.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
SO THE IMAGE THAT’S COMING TO MY MIND WHEN YOU’RE DESCRIBING THE GAMEPLAY AND EVERYTHING IS, LIKE, OLD SCHOOL BOND 007 ON N64, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? IT’S LIKE…
[LEWIS MANALO]
THAT’S THE JUICE!
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
I GOT MINE.
[LEWIS MANALO]
YEAH, AROUND…
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
[LEWIS MANALO]
THAT’S THE FEEL. THAT’S THE FEEL THAT WE WANT TO HAVE. YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF FUN.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
LIKE, OLD SCHOOL, OLD CALL OF DUTY, LIKE, WHERE THERE’S, YEAH, YOU KNOW, THE COURTYARD, AND THERE’S, LIKE, OPTIONS, GOOD LUCK, RIGHT? I MEAN, THAT’S PRETTY,
[LEWIS MANALO]
YEAH, LIKE, MORE OR LESS. FOR ME, IT WAS LESS CALL OF DUTY, BUT IT WAS HALO, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? LIKE, IN THE BARRACKS, WE WOULD LITERALLY RUN CABLES BETWEEN THE BARRACKS ROOMS, AND THEN WE’D JUST GO FOUR ON FOUR IN THAT LITTLE RED VERSUS BLUE HORSESHOE THAT THEY HAD. BUT YEAH, THAT’S WHAT WE THINK IS FUN.
AND YOU KNOW, A LOT OF GAMES WITH BIGGER BUDGETS—FROM REALLY ESTABLISHED IPs, PROPERTIES, FRANCHISES—THEY’RE PROBABLY GOING TO GO REALLY DEEP WITH THE BELLS AND WHISTLES AND STUFF. BUT IF A GAME’S STILL NOT FUN, IT’S JUST NOT FUN, RIGHT?
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
I SAW ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT THERE’S A FORTNITE ISLAND. IF THERE’S PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PLAY THIS RIGHT NOW, IS THAT AN OPTION, OR IS IT JUST BETA TESTERS UNTIL THE GAME IS READY FOR SALE? WHERE ARE WE AT IN THAT PROCESS RIGHT NOW?
[LEWIS MANALO]
OKAY, SO RIGHT NOW WITH OUTFLANK, WE’RE WORKING ON THE VERTICAL SLICE, WHICH IS BASICALLY ONE LEVEL—ONE COMBAT MAP ON A BATTLEFIELD. AND RIGHT NOW, WE’RE WORKING TOWARDS RAISING FUNDS TO FUND THE REST OF THE PRODUCTION.
THE FORTNITE ISLAND—THAT WAS BASICALLY US WANTING TO EXPERIMENT WITH SOME IDEAS. WE WANTED TO TEST SOME IDEAS OUT AND SEE HOW THEY WORKED IN PUBLIC. IT’S A VERY EASY AND AFFORDABLE PLACE TO PROTOTYPE SOMETHING AND PUT IT IN FRONT OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.
ONE OF THE PILLARS OF VICTORY’S GRAVE IS THAT THERE’S A SURVIVAL ASPECT TO IT. SO WE ASKED, “WHAT HAPPENS IF WE PUT PEOPLE IN A PVP SITUATION WHERE THEY CAN BUILD SOME STUFF—BUT NOT AS MUCH AS USUAL IN FORTNITE—AND WE GIVE THEM A LOT LESS BULLETS?” THAT WAS THE EXPERIMENT.
PEOPLE PLAYED IT FOR A COUPLE DAYS, AND WE LEARNED A LOT ABOUT PLAYER RETENTION. THE ISLAND’S STILL UP—PROBABLY NOT MANY PEOPLE VISITING IT THESE DAYS—BUT IT WAS A TEST FOR US TO SEE IF WE COULD RELEASE SOMETHING. IT’S NOT FOR THE HISTORY BOOKS, BUT IT’S SOMETHING WE WERE ABLE TO DO.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
SO WE’RE IN THE PROCESS OF GETTING THE FUNDING GOING TO COMPLETE THE FIRST ROUND OF PRODUCTION. THE ACCESSIBILITY THAT GAME DEVELOPERS HAVE NOWADAYS—IT SEEMS LIKE THE INDUSTRY IS A LOT MORE OPEN, JUST LIKE WITH MUSIC AND OTHER CONTENT CREATION. IS THAT ACCURATE?
[LEWIS MANALO]
100%. IT’S 100% ACCURATE. THERE’S BEEN A LOT OF STATISTICS COMING OUT. IN 2016 ON STEAM, THERE WERE SOMETHING LIKE 700 NEW GAMES RELEASED. LAST YEAR, IT WAS OVER 20,000.
THERE ARE A LOT OF TOOLS THAT MAKE GAME DEVELOPMENT MORE ACCESSIBLE—DIFFERENT GAME ENGINES THAT MAKE IT EASIER. YOU DON’T NEED TO BE A MASTER OF C++ TO SHIP A GAME ANYMORE.
THE QUALITY OF THESE GAMES VARIES, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT’S A GOOD THING THAT PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS TO THIS STUFF. I ALSO DID BOOKSTORE MANAGEMENT FOR A WHILE—AND I WAS WORKING WHEN THE IPAD CAME OUT. EVEN THEN, BOOKS DIDN’T GO AWAY. MARKETS CHANGE.
NOW THERE’S A WHOLE SEPARATE MARKET OF PEOPLE SELF-PUBLISHING. THEY’LL PUBLISH HUGE FANTASY SERIES THAT NO ONE’S HEARD OF UNLESS YOU’RE READING THAT SERIES. FOR THOSE FEW THOUSAND PEOPLE, THAT’S AWESOME. THAT’S THEIR JAM. AND IT MAKES THAT WRITER A LIVING.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
OBVIOUSLY, I’M GONNA GO OUT ON A LIMB HERE—YOU HOPE MORE THAN A FEW THOUSAND END UP PLAYING OUTFLANK, AND WE HOPE THAT HAPPENS FOR YOU. WHEN THE GAME IS READY, WILL YOU COME BACK AND GIVE US AN UPDATE SO OUR AUDIENCE CAN KNOW WHERE AND WHEN AND HOW THEY CAN PLAY THIS?
[LEWIS MANALO]
OH, ABSOLUTELY. RIGHT NOW, ACTUALLY, THE GAME HAS A STEAM PAGE—VICTORY’S GRAVE: OUTFLANK. JUST GO ON STEAM, PLEASE WISHLIST IT, GIVE IT A FOLLOW. AND IF YOU WANT TO SUPPORT US OR LEARN MORE ABOUT THE STUDIO, YOU CAN GO TO OLDGLORYSTUDIOS.US.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
YOU BET. I GUESS I SHOULD HAVE ASKED THIS EARLIER—WITH OUTFLANK, IS IT GOING TO BE CONSOLE AGNOSTIC, OR IS IT GOING TO BE AN XBOX EXCLUSIVE?
[LEWIS MANALO]
WELL, EXCLUSIVE—RIGHT NOW, WE’RE FOCUSING ON THE PC RELEASE. THAT’S WHERE THE MORE HARDCORE MILSIM PLAYERS ARE, AND THAT’S WHO WE FEEL WOULD BE OUR FIRST ADOPTERS.
THOSE GAMES ARE TOO DIFFICULT FOR ME, BUT THERE’S BEEN A DESIRE IN THAT NICHE FOR A MILSIM ESPORT, AND THIS CHECKS THAT BOX FOR THEM.
IT’S ACTUALLY QUITE EXPENSIVE TO PORT YOUR GAME TO OTHER PLATFORMS. RIGHT NOW, THAT’S PREVENTATIVE FOR US. WE’RE NOT AGAINST IT—WHETHER IT BE PLAYSTATION, XBOX, OR EVEN MOBILE—THOSE ARE ALL THINGS WE’RE CONSIDERING.
WE PLAN AHEAD FOR THAT POSSIBILITY—ESPECIALLY IN GAME MENUS AND UI. there, like, you can tell when some game is just like, well, this would be easy to navigate if I had a mouse, but now that I have a controller, I can’t do anything.”
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
YEAH, I GUESS, YEAH. THAT’S A LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY THAT YOU DON’T REALLY THINK ABOUT UNLESS YOU’RE MAKING THE THING, RIGHT?
[LEWIS MANALO]
YEAH. AND THAT’S THE THING. WE DON’T WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE TO, YOU KNOW? WE DON’T WANT PLAYERS TO HAVE TO HAVE THE REACTION OF JUST LIKE, “OH, I SHOULD HAVE GOT THIS ON PC SO I COULD ACTUALLY, LIKE, NAVIGATE.”
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
MAKES SENSE. MAKES SENSE. ALRIGHT, SIR. REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. THANK YOU SO MUCH. AND YOU KNOW, LIKE I SAID EARLIER, WHEN YOU HAVE AN UPDATE FOR US, WHEN OUTFLANK IS OUT THERE FOR THE MASSES, YOU KNOW, WRIT LARGE, LET US KNOW, AND WE’LL LET OUR AUDIENCE KNOW.
[LEWIS MANALO]
ALL RIGHT, AWESOME. ALL RIGHT, THANKS.
[RYAN ROBERTSON]
APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU, SIR.
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